So, I bought a lens on the 20^th May 2010 from eBay seller alldigital0869. Now I was very aware that this lens had cosmetic issues but the listing stated that it was optically and mechanically sound which was good enough for me. Looking at the pictures there was obviously some dust on the lens but many lenses I’ve bought before have had dust and they’ve always been easy enough to clean up.

Anyway, lens arrives a few days later and all is not as it seems. The dust was internal and there was a noticeable scratch on the front optic. Needless to say, neither was mentioned so I fired off the following message to them:

Dear alldigital0869,

Hi, lens received this morning however there is 
quite a bit of dust inside that wasn't made clear 
in the listing and the front optic has several 
scratch marks on it, the biggest of which is shown 
in pic four on the right hand side.

Got this reply later that day:

Thanks for your email and we are sincerely sorry to hear this and will of course rectify quickly for you. We do make every effort to provide an accurate assessment of each item so it is regretful to hear that something is not correct.


Please can you return the item to us and we will match up the serial number and arrange a prompt refund with minimum fuss. We will ensure that the refund is processed very quickly for you


To ensure no delays in issuing your refund, can you please enclose your eBay item number name address and reason for return

Our Postage Address is
TRACEY FREDERICKS
ALL DIGITAL
RETURNS DEPT : EBAY ITEM NUMBER
<address removed>

Many thanks for your co-operation on this matter and we are sorry that this deal has not been as successful as both parties would have liked it to been. We do appreciate you contacting us first so that we can sort this satisfactory for you.

Kind Regards


Tracey
AllDigital

That’s the sort of reply that I like to receive. I sent the lens back; recorded delivery at my expense, on the 26^th May 2010 and it was received on the 27^th and almost immediately relisted. Fair enough except the seller did not alter the listing one little bit. No mention of internal dust or the scratch. None of my business, if someone wants to trade like that then they won’t stay in business very long, or so I thought.

So, all goes quiet for a few days and the seller still has my money so I fire off another message on the 30^th May:

Dear alldigital0869,

Good morning, I see that you have received the
returned lens and sold it already. Can I ask when I
might receive my refund?

A reply comes back the following day (31^st May):

your PayPal account has now been refunded

regards

Lovely I thought. I went to check my PayPal account and there it is, the refund. Only I’m a little miffed, the refund was for the purchase price only so I am now out of pocket not only for the original postage but also the postage that I paid to return the lens. I’m not a happy bunny at this stage so I fire off a message the following day (1st June):

Dear alldigital0869,

Hi, I have received the refund but it does not
include my original P+P costs which I believe I am
entitled to under SOGA. Please note I am happy to
bear the cost of returning the lens to you.

Now, I should point out at this stage that I have asked for advice about what the process is for returning goods to business sellers form the very (mostly) helpful people over at UPCE (google it).

And the reply came back as follows:

hi the lense was checked and found to nothing wrong with it so item we only refunded the selling price as under the distance selling regulations we only have to refund the selling price

i will take it up with accounts but we advertised the item fairly and showed clear pictures of the item as been worn hence the low price it went for as normally these type of lenses go for around 100-110 hopefully you understand this

regards

So, my mentioning of SOGA was completely ignored and the Distance Selling Regulations was brought into play. Another message gets fired off on 1^st June:

Dear alldigital0869,

Hi, I didn't return the lens under DSR, I returned
it under SOGA. The lens worked, yes, but there was
a significant amount of dust internally and a
scratch on the front optic. Neither of those
faults were made clear in the listing. I am aware
of what prices these go for in A1 condition. I'd
really rather not have to open a dispute on this.

And back came a same day reply:

Dear dentedshed,

what is SOGA? and i will ask account and get advise from my eBay manager as i have never heard of soga. We are by law required to give a 7 day return policy, and to refund the selling price as the same as distance selling regs.... I will ask as i do not understand this procedure as we normally only refund selling price.. as per listing we always refund full selling price no quibble refund for any reason

regards

It would appear that they are pleading ignorance of trading laws. Time to fire off another message (2^nd June):

Dear alldigital0869,

SOGA is the Sale of Goods Act. As I said previously,
it was this that I returned the lens under.
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/consumer-rights/consumer-
rights.html#scratch

As you can see I used one of Ebay’s own links to attempt to educate the seller.

I get the reply back the same day:

hi we have refunded the selling price as stated its like if you buy of the tv or something they never refund the original postage paid however i will ask accounts if they will make a exemption and get your postage to you

regards

So, it’s now the 2^nd of June and the seller is asking the accounts dept if they can make an exception for me. I leave it a few days, until the 6^th of June. I figure four days is enough to ask accounts lots of things.

Time to open a dispute, all I want is my postage back, a paltry £4.99.

I make it very clear when entering details for the dispute that the seller has already refunded the purchase price and all I want is my original postage back.

Seller then takes two days to respond to the dispute and says (8^th June):

Seller's message:

"Buyer has been refund full selling price, item was described correctly there was no dust ect in lense regards

I respond the same day (just over an hour later):

Your message to the seller:

"There was dust in the lens and there was a scratch on the front optic. All I am asking for is my postage back as you have already refunded the purchase price."

I think I’m being perfectly reasonable here.

And then, nothing. Nothing at all, no reply. So, on the 18^th June I escalate the dispute to Ebay customer support stating the following:

Your message to Customer Support:

"The seller has not responded in ten days so I don't know what else to do."

48 Hours later (20^th June) I get this message from Ebay Customer Support:

eBay Customer Support has refunded you through PayPal and the case is closed.

Refund information:

A refund of £4.99 has been issued to your PayPal account. 

Final decision:

This case has been decided in your favour.

Customer Support comments:

"Case closed."

So, not a good experience especially seeing as it could all have been done and dusted within a week. Instead the seller chose to make life difficult.

Feedback time. Now, I should point out that I am not in the habit of leaving neg feedback and will only do so as a last resort. I’ll fully admit that I was quite happy to leave neg feedback in this case, it wasn’t like it would actually have any effect on the seller’s 100% positive anyway due to their high volume of sales.

So, this is what I left:

Dust inside&scratch on front, neither mentioned, really poor comms, unimpressed

• Reply by alldigital0869 (Jun-20-10 02:17):

Disagree. Priced Low to reflect state of lens & still happy to refund

• Follow-up by dentedshed (Jun-20-10 03:58):

No mention of dust or scratch, had to engage Ebay for full refund. Uncooperative

Of course, the seller was always going to do a follow up, what seller wouldn’t?

As far as I’m concerned, that’s it, matter dealt with and time to move on.

Later that day (20^th June) I get the following message from another ebayer:

Just a word of warning re alldigital - here's what will happen.
First of they will offer you £15 to remove your negative feedback.
If accepted they will make this payment and then 2 weeks later it will get recalled as a failed payment- strange!!
They will also, and I'm yet to work out how they do this, get your feedback removed by eBay - my personal opinion is that they have eBay in their back pocket - I have watched their feedback and over the last 3 months they've had about 20+ negative scores - and all bar 1 have been removed by the system.
This gives a very inaccurate representation of their status, I reported it to eBay, guess what, I got told to not interfere.

So I replied with this:

Hi, I assume you have had dealing with them under
a different username as I can't see them mentioned
in your feedback. They can offer me all the money
in the world but I will not revise my feedback. As
to them having eBay in their pocket, probably not
but I've no doubt that they have a good account
manager. Just in case you didn't know they used to
sell under the name of filterfantastic08 but they
seem to use that now as their buying account most
likely due to the amount of negs they got. They
will not have my feedback removed as the key to
leaving neg feedback is to be non insulting and
truthful, once someone libels then eBay *have* to
remove the statement. I hate leaving neg feedback
but the simple fact is that they ignored me for
ten days through the resolution centre probably
hoping it would go away.

Now, it’s dealt with time to move on.

Only another message comes through (22^nd June):

I did warn you - have you seen your feedback for alldigital has been removed - this guy is the biggest con artist out there!!!

WTF? Off I go and check alldigital0869’s feedback page and sure enough it has been removed. Now, maybe I was a little cock sure of myself but I was very careful not to put anything personal or insulting in the feedback comments.

Below is a screenshot taken from http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=alldigital0869&Dirn=Received+by&ref=home

And this is a screenshot from alldigital0869’s feedback page, note the neg has been removed.

As it stands today (23^rd June) I have emailed Ebay Customer Support querying the reason as to why the feedback has been removed.

Whilst compiling this page I decided to do a little bit of research on alldigital0869.

I already knew that they used to sell under the eBay username of filterfantastic08 but further digging reveals that they used to go by the username of harbour48 (no longer registered) and it seems they’ve been naughty before

http://forum.photographers.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=583&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=14b5cb135d2a12d09e1509b5e6ab9fde

I’ve also found some interesting posts on the talkphotography.co.uk website (registration may be required to view all posts)

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=1350115

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=69578

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=116235

**Update** 23^rd June 2010

Okay so no reply to the email I sent, it’s only been a few hours so I’ve phoned them instead.

I spoke to a lovely lady by the name of Alison, who confirms that the feedback has indeed been withdrawn (well d’uh!) but is not allowed to reveal the reason behind the removal. I spent lots of time on hold, I’m guessing that Alison was consulting others. Because Alison was unable to explain the reason(s) behind the feedback removal I have asked to speak to a supervisor and now have a scheduled callback for the 24^th June at 11:30am. Interestingly I have also been told that a £20 gift voucher will be credited to my eBay account! Smells like hush money to me.

**Update** 23^rd June 2010

I’ve had a reply to the email I’d sent to Customer Support:

Hello Michael,

Thanks for getting in touch. I can understand why you might be concerned
about feedback removal when you leave an honest description of your
experience with your seller 'alldigital0869'.

Michael, I've looked into this and I can see that we have removed the
Feedback you received as it fits one of our Feedback removal criteria.

Please note that our decision to remove the Feedback does not constitute
us finding that the identified Feedback is defamatory or otherwise
unlawful.

While we are able to review activity on eBay accounts when needed,
please understand that I'm not able to discuss our internal systems and
procedures with you.

I know this may not be the answer you were looking for but I hope I've
at least been able to explain our position clearly.

Kind regards,

Terence Durkin
eBay Trust & Safety

A suggestion has been put to me that I fell foul of the feedback abuse policy because I used the words ‘had to engage eBay’ in my follow up. I fear that this is going to be the response I get on the phone tomorrow L

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/feedback-abuse-withdrawal.html

**Update** 24^th June 2010

11:30am came and went without a phone call. Instead they decide to ring at 1pm, just when I have an eBay seller here delivering something, good timing or what?

I spoke to a member of the Power Seller Team called Gavin Mason who, much to my surprise was incredibly helpful. He asked me to go through the entire timeline of the transaction to see if it tallied up with what he had on record, and of course it did. He has admitted that the neg feedback should not have been removed and that one of his colleagues was wrong to do so and that this is to be investigated. According to Gavin, there is no procedure to reinstate the feedback so it looks like it is lost forever.

Gavin went to great pains to say that no power seller has the ability or right to have feedback removed just to enhance or protect their rating and he also denied that the £20 voucher was hush money, more compensation from eBay as the neg removal was an error on their part.

Whilst expressing my disappointment about the neg removal, I happened to mention to Gavin that I had done some research into alldigital0869. He has asked that I pass on any info that I have with regards this seller and previous IDs used on eBay as he would like to look into any feedback irregularities, he seemed particularly interested in the suggestion that alldigital0869 was offering money for feedback revision.

I’ve emailed Gavin with any information I had so that’s probably the last I’ll hear of it.

**Update** 24^th June

Just had an ebay message telling me that alldigital0869 has received another neg today, let’s see if that stays there.

**Update** 25^th June

And another neg received.

**UPDATE** 25^th June

I’ve just had an email from the nice people at alldigital0869

Evening - we have a difference over the Canon lens and thats
OK. There will always be differences in life but I always feel it is
how you handle them that matters.

I see from your feedback you buy camera equipment - you can
see from our feedback we sell lots of camera equipment.

There is a middle line in this where we can meet - we offer a
goodwil gesture of £20.00 off your next purchase - no timescale
- you can use whenever it suits you. This we hope shows our
willingness on this matter to move on. If you think this is fair -
we ask that the negative is removed voluntarily by yourself.

This is a more positive approach I hope you agree - we can both
take the more bitter line of refusing to trade with each other
again - but its along life and I am sure you will see in the future
plenty of items from us that may be of interest to you and it
makes sense that we professionally sorted. Thanks, look
forward to hearing from you. AD

So, there’s my bribe. Do they not actually know that the feedback has been removed already!?! Of course I’ll have to forward the message on to my new friend in the Power Seller Team.

Time to string alldigital0869 along a little....

**Update** 25^th June

Well, I’m nearly speechless. I was so busy replying to the message from alldigital0869 that I didn’t bother to look at the neg feedback number. Turns out that my new best friend on the Power Seller Team has had the neg feedback reinstated. That would be why I have received the bribe from alldigital0869.

Tonight I am a *very* happy bunny J

**Update** 26^th June

Last night when I received my bribe, I hadn’t realised that my feedback had been reinstated.

This is how I replied to the bribe:

Dear alldigital0869,

What annoyed me most and led me to leaving the
negative was the simple fact that you ignored my
messages and I had to put it into the hands of the
resolution centre. If I had been refunded my
original postage as per my request I probably
wouldn't have left any feedback at all and
considered it dealt with. Whilst your offer of £20
off is appreciated I don't think I will be buying
from you again because of the way that this
transaction has left a sour taste in my mouth.

I've had a thought. You had my feedback removed by
your account manager and it is only now that you
decide to communicate when I have managed to have
the feedback reinstated. You wouldn't have had the
neg in the first place had you been reasonable and
fair.

And this is the reply this morning:

Morning. We all have opinions - and I disagree with yours.

The lens was very fairly advertised. The fact that when it arrived
back we relisted it as before - it sold and the chap who won it -
loved it - left positive feedback Stating had the low price
accurately reflected the condition. This is what we have proved to
ebay and our account manager.

(At least now I know how the feedback was removed)

We refunded and responded to every one of your emails.

There is not one email we did not respond to - so not only did
we feel your negative was unfair - it was also untrue, regarding
poor communication.

As discussed earlier - I have no intention in getting involved in a
tit for tat discussion and made a very fair goodwill offer to you.
We have over 10,000 positive feedbacks, rated 7 in all of Ebay
Photography sections and have a superb trading history on Ebay.
Our range of products are only getting bigger and prices lower.

I was offering you a goodwill gesture looking at a longer term
position - clearly you buy photographic goods and in the future
- we will have deals that will interest you.

You declined so no hard feelings and we will both move on and
not trade with each other again - unless of course, you would
like to discuss further.

Kind Regards

AD

More to follow as I have to reply to this, give someone enough rope etc etc...

**Update** 1^st July 2010 (I can’t update this daily!)

This is my reply to the above message sent on 26^th June

From: Michael

Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 8:20 AM

To: ebay@thephotographersbag.co.uk

Subject: Re: alldigital0869 has sent a question about item #300429487458, that ended on 20-May-10 13:06:08 BST - Canon EF 75-300mm F4-5.6 MKIII USM Zoom Lens for EOS SL

Good morning,

You are right, we do all have opinions, and it looks like we do disagree here. I bought the lens based upon your description in the listing, I didn't mind the external condition. When I received the lens there was a lot of internal dust and there was a scratch on the front optic, neither of these were mentioned in the listing.

"Good condition - Optically and Mechanically sound. Cosmectially, the lens has  exterior rub marks on the black coating but nothing that effects the peformance of the lens."

I was delighted to be offered a refund when I contacted you. However I was disappointed not to receive my original postage back. As you are a business seller you are obliged to refund me in full, that refund should also have included my return costs as well as original postage. In fact, the law states that all I had to do was make the item available for collection but I returned it directly to you. I was happy to swallow the cost of the return postage as I stated before as I am well aware that margins are tight when selling on Ebay.

The reason you got the negative was because after June 8th you stopped communicating. You had stated previously that you would ask the Accounts Dept about my refund but never got back to me, that is where the poor communication comment arose from.

As to you then selling the lens on, all I can say is maybe that buyer is less discerning than I am.

As you state, your feedback record is impressive but only when taken on its own. Once you look at the bigger picture, it really doesn't look so great.

As it stands, you have done nothing to convince me that the negative feedback should be removed.

And here is the reply later the same day:

Afternoon Michael

Thanks for taking the effort to reply - it is appreciated.  Switching tact - is there anything we can do for you that would convince you to remove the neg?

If you do not want to continue communication - I understand - but if you want to see if we can get a solution - very happy to discuss further.  I see you are a photo buyer and as a company who has turns over in excess of £2m per year - we can really offer you very special deals to show you that we care about customers.

Thanks

AD

As of today, 1^st July, I haven’t replied to this latest email, yet.

Email me